Pistolet Automatique de 7 millimètre 65 genre Ruby

[oskar2ndchev]

Absolutely fascinating! Are you planning on writing a book about this? I think you'd have a great market niche since it would be in English.

Now, I have to ask, what's the French fascination with small caliber pistols? Seems that they're more interested in annoying the enemy than actually killing them. ;D

In all seriousness, did they ever use anything heavier than .32 cal? I could be wrong about this...which is why I stick to US and the M1911.

[rsm2ndbtnlf]

Adam... the Fench can't handle .455, 45, 9mm.. etc.... to powerfull for them!.. Bless them! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Seph

[1886lebel]

The French and alot of European nations used smaller calibers such as the 7.65mm Browning is that it was easy to procure ammunition, little recoil and the fact that alot of different companies through out Europe made pistols in that caliber for self-defense and police forces.
The French Purchasing Commission did purchase a number of pistols from the U.S. to include the Savage 1907 in 7.65mm Browning and Colt 1911 in 11.45mm (.45 ACP).
They obtained 5,000 1911's from Colt directly which were shipped between November 1915 and January 1916. Most of these were used to arm Tank forces later in the war. Ammunition was obtained from Robin Hood Arms Co. which was making 8x50Rmm "Lebel" ammunition for the French.
All these 1911's were civilian arms which fall in between serial numbers C17800 and C28000.
Another pistol purchased was the Colt Army Special in .38 Colt and supposedly 10,000 were sent but records are sketchy to as this number sent.
I could go on and on about all this neat stuff but probably bore you all with the information.
I am hoping to write a book on WWI French Firearms sometime in the future but I find it easier to write posts up like this one.
Patrick

[Transport]

Ahoy!

Great article! There was a article in a recent edition of The American Rifleman about small caliber handguns carried in the Great war. It too was very interesting that it pointed out it was common for troops to carry private purchase handguns for trench raids and such.

Transport out

[rsm2ndbtnlf]

Patrick,

Good Luck with your forthcoming book.. you've certainly got the knowledge to enter into such a task.

One question to you if I may? Why, when every other nation was opting for the box magazine system, did France opt for the tubular magazine.. as in the Lebel?

Seph

[Larry Dunn]

(IMHO) I think it was a matter of timing--the Lebel was introduced in 1886, before the introduction "spitzer" type bullets, and when box magazines were still pretty new. The Lebel introduced small caliber, jacketed, smokeless-powder cartridges--that's a lot of innovation! Given the doctrine at the time (single fire with the magazine for "emergency use" only) an 8-round tubular magazine looked like a pretty good choice, and was already in use with the Mauser Gew. 71/84 and various Kropatchek designs.

I'm sure Patrick will have more to add.

-Larry

[1886lebel]

When Paul Marie Eugène Vieille invented a smokeless gunpowder called Poudre V (Vielle), later changed to B (Boulanger or Blanche), in 1884 which was made from gelatinized guncotton mixed with ether and alcohol, the French War Minister, General Boulanger requested, actually demanding that a new weapon be designed for this "new" revolutionary powder.
In April of 1886 he set up a commission of various Army Artillery Officers to design this rifle and they found that the quickest way was to take a previous designed rifle, the Fusil d'Infanterie Mle.1885, which was a blackpowder cartridge, 11x59Rmm, and basically convert it to use smokeless powder.
To make a long, long story short ... they made a new rifle in less than a year which then started production in April of 1887 and no other country had one of the new powder cartridges until the advent of the German 1888 Commission Rifle.
France did not go to the box magazine for a few reasons: Money and Politics. The French Generals did not feel that the tubular magazine system was a hinderance during the period of 1887 to 1914 as it was thought that a war would be fought in less than 4 months with a few battles in there in which the enemy would be defeated by French Elan. They did not take in account for the type of warfare WWI would become ... TRENCHES and such. The other reason was money: As France had spent huge amounts of money buying the machines and equipment from Pratt&Whitney to make these weapons to suddenly stop production and re-design a new rifle and change the tools to make this rifle would have been expensive as at the time France was short of money due to the lose during the Franco-Prussian War, plus a few other factors.
The French did experiment with a few different weapon systems such as the design submitted by Army Major Louis Daudeteau for his prototype Fusil and Carabine Modele B in 1895 and 1896 but nothing really happened with these weapons as the French military was satified with the Mle.1886 but did opt for Emile Berthier design for the Cavalry and Artillery which I have posted on here called Berthier Carbine and Rifle Information ... greatwarforum.proboards54.com/index.cgi?board=rifleandbayonet&action=display&thread=268&page=1
I have so much information on French weapons in my head and trying to get it down on paper or posts like these this is tough as I want to make sure I get it correct.
I hope I answered your question as sometimes I ramble on a bit.
Yes I do have one of prototype Carabine Modele B in my collection and it was one that was used in the trials of 1895/96.
Patrick

[oskar2ndchev]

Amazing story! To me, the stories behind the development of the various weapons is just as interesting as other more purely military aspects. Sometimes the rationale behind development choices can be as simple as "I don't like the designer" or "It's a good design but we don't have the money". The development of the German Commission rifle also makes for some interesting reading.

I also find it interesting that the French had to buy machine tools off the Americans (Pratt & Whitney- more famous for making jet engines but got it's start making machine tools going back to the American Civil War).

[1886lebel]

In January of 1886, French War Minister, General Boulanger, instructed General Tramond, who was in-charge of the Commission des Armes à Répetition to complete the project within less than a year. The Commission composed of Colonel Bonnet who was the previous Commandant de l'Ecole Normale de Tir, Lt. Colonel Lebel who now was Commandant de l'Ecole Normale de Tir, Colonel Gras who was Inspecteur des Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault and designer of the famous Mle.1874 Gras series of weapons, Colonel Castan who was Directeur de la poudrerie du Bouchet, Colonel Tristan who Chef du service des armes portatives de la Section Technique de l'Artillerie, Capitaine Désaleux, and last not least Paul Marie Eugène Vieille.
This commission was the one which formulated and supervised the execution of the Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886.
Colonel Gras was given the task of overall appearance and design of the new rifle which included the mechanism.
Colonel Bonnet was tasked with the bolt in which he include dual opposed front locking lugs.
Lt. Colonel Lebel contribution was the full-metal-jacket bullet, "Balle M"which had been formulated and extensively tested at the l'Ecole Normale de Tir under his direction. The 231 grains (15.0 g) "Balle M" bullet had a lead core and a cupro-nickel jacket with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 ft/s (600 m/s).
Colonel Lebel protested during his lifetime that Colonel Gras bore more responsibility than he did in the new rifle, but to no avail as his name, which was used to designate the bullet (Balle Lebel), stuck to the entire weapon
Capitain Desaleux was given the task to redesign the 11x59Rmm Gras cartridge case into a smokeless 8mm case.
Paul Marie Eugène Vieille task was to make the powder faster to allow it to increased to 600 m/s.
We think Colonel Tristan designed the bayonet system used on the rifle as well as the Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 itself but more research is need in this.
The protypes were built at Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault under Colonel Gras supervision and two of his employees Contrôleurs Albert Close and Louis Verdin designed the mechanism system including the all important magazine cut-off.
This project was carried out within slightly more than one year, between January 1886 and the date of formal adoption: April 1887. The historical record shows that the rifle development was the result of superb teamwork carried out against time and under great pressure exerted from above by the Minister of War, General Boulanger.
Capitain Desaleux who would be promoted to Major for his work on the rifle would later famous for the Cartouche Modèle 1886 à Balle D, commonly called Balle D, which featured a solid lathe turned brass, spitzer, boat-tailed bullet, which was generalized for service in 1901.
Patrick

[Larry Dunn]

Mar 19, 2009 11:50:39 GMT -8 oskar2ndchev said:

...
I also find it interesting that the French had to buy machine tools off the Americans (Pratt & Whitney- more famous for making jet engines but got it's start making machine tools going back to the American Civil War).

They weren't alone, OEWG (Steyr) was equipped with Pratt & Whitney machinery as well.

-Larry

[1886lebel]

Pratt & Whitney machinery was the state of art at that time and it still is as we have some of their machines in the ANG unit I am in for fixing jet engines.
The reason they purchased these machines in October of 1886 was that they were set-up to make interchangable parts, were quickly set-up for production and had a reputation of bieng reliable without any major break-downs. We can not make machinery like this really anymore IMAO.
The French also purchased machinery from Greenwood and Batley to make the barrels and align the bayonets to the barrels themselves.
I had read that OEWG had also bought these machines and so had many other nations such as Japan for the production of the Type 30.
Patrick