|
|
Post by rsm2ndbtnlf on Sept 7, 2008 13:04:48 GMT -8
Gentlemen, as we are all aware, a trench raid had several objectives..
1) Obtaining intelligence on ones opponant.
2) The precurement of prisoners for the facilitation of 1) above.
3) Silencing annoying weapons positions.
4) Gaining a foothold in the enemies position before a local attack on same by own forces.
5) Harrassing the enemy.
As we are all striving to keep to historical accuracy, I have a question about the ethics of our own trench raids.
Q. Are we (either side) allowed during a successful trench raid, to capture the enemies major weapons: Granatewerfer, Lewis or Maxim guns, Vickers MG's, etc;. If captured, the weapon / weapons are kept by the capturing force for a set period of time, or the duration of the battle scenario? The latter would be a more realistic outcome.
Comments would be most appreciated.
Seph
|
|
|
|
Post by rmli on Sept 7, 2008 15:58:57 GMT -8
Weapons, especially crew served weapons, should stay with the owners. I would consider the weapon neutralized for a set period of time, say 1/2 hour. Time enough to simulate a replacement to be brought forward.
|
|
|
|
Post by rsm2ndbtnlf on Sept 7, 2008 17:41:09 GMT -8
We should capture the crew as well then eh!  ;D |
|
Radford
New Member
My Grandfather's Dog Tag.
Posts: 29
|
Post by Radford on Sept 7, 2008 18:11:57 GMT -8
This begs the question; what are the current Rules of Engagement and Safety Regulations for the GWHS? I have looked on the GWHS web site, and on this site, and have not been able to find information on these subjects more recent than the 1994 ByLaws on the GWHS site.
As a follow-up, should there be a section on this site for discussions of GWHS rules/policy/safety?
|
|
|
|
Post by rsm2ndbtnlf on Sept 7, 2008 19:07:03 GMT -8
Excellant point Radford!
|
|
|
|
Post by rmli on Sept 7, 2008 19:25:13 GMT -8
Safety rules?  Who needs safety rules! Every man for himself! LOL |
|
|
|
Post by rsm2ndbtnlf on Sept 7, 2008 20:51:34 GMT -8
Aw.. come on RMLI... we have to let the Hun's feel just a little bit important.. eh! ;D |
|
|
|
Post by oskar2ndchev on Sept 7, 2008 22:03:59 GMT -8
The bylaws pretty much spell things out. They've worked fine for us in the past and it's anticipated that they'll be fine going forward.
As far as trench raids go, probably the best thing would be for the crew-served weapon to be out of action for a pre-determined length of time. This is something that can be easily worked out with little difficulty.
Of course, until we see greater Allied numbers, I have a feeling that we're going to be the ones more on the receiving end for trench raids.
Radford, unless you've attended a few events, it's hard to get a feel for how things go so perhaps you should attend a battle or two before passing judgement.
|
|
|
|
Post by rsm2ndbtnlf on Sept 7, 2008 22:36:59 GMT -8
Did they have trench raids in the American War of Independence?
Your turn Radford. ;D
Adam, I'll certainly agree that instead of physically removing the offending weapon and crew, its far more appropriate to determine the outcome of such a situation before the scenario begins. Lets just say.. its an essential prelim to impending hostilities.
As Phil suggested, a time laps of around 30 mins would be an appropriate period for the crew and weapon to be classed as 'out of action'. This would however be left to the honours system, as we do not have, nor do I think we want any form of on-site umpire.
Although I did eg Radford on a little, I do feel that there should be a separate section within the GWHS bylaws if you wish, that deals soley with safetry aspects of our hobby. This may even be repeating certain parts of the Bylaws, but safety can never be scrimped upon. Do you think that the subject can be raised at the next GWHS Board meeting? If required, I am willing to put together a preliminary paper for presentation of approval. It would not be to detaild, but the main and basic guidelines would be laid in place.
Also, showing that we as a society, do have special mention of the safety aspects, may just put the GWHS into a higher bracket to those sitting outside the bounderies.. looking for an organisation to be a part of. Its worth putting to general duscussion if nothing else. At least then the general concensus will be known.
|
|
|
|
Post by Larry Dunn on Sept 8, 2008 7:58:42 GMT -8
... Q. Are we ( either side) allowed during a successful trench raid, to capture the enemies major weapons: Granatewerfer... Seph Molon labe! ;D -Larry |
|
Radford
New Member
My Grandfather's Dog Tag.
Posts: 29
|
Post by Radford on Sept 8, 2008 8:40:32 GMT -8
Actually, they did! AWI period sieges offer excellent parallels (pun intended) to WW1 trench warfare. At Yorktown, the British conducted nighttime sorties to spike the French guns, and then there's the American and French assault on Redoubts No. 9 and 10. Speaking as a boundary sitter, as much as I am looking forward to swelling the Allied ranks by one, I am holding off until I can be more confident as to the legality of the GWHS Safety Rules and the legal status of the GWHS as an organization. At various events I have seen guys shot with wood tipped blanks, bayoneted by fixed bayonets, flash burned by muzzle blasts. What we do for fun is dangerous! I am willing to accept the personal risk, but I am not willing to be liable for risks I have no control over. I don't think anyone on this list was around the time Jack Rabbit Trails caught fire at a WW2 event when someone got careless with a smoke grenade. This was just before I joined the WW2 club, so I did not have to come up with cash out of my pocket to help pay off the charges for the firebomber. So what happens if Ozena catches fire? If there is major property damage or someone gets seriously hurt at a GWHS event and lawsuits start flying, what responsibility do I bear - what risk do I assume? Is the GWHS a corporation, with a general liability insurance policy, or are the members assuming the risk individually? The Great War Association is a corporation. The California Historical Group is a corporation. The 33rd Regiment of Foot, Inc. is a corporation, and a member of two parent corporations; the Brigade of the American Revolution, and the British Brigade. The GWHS is? Then there are the GWHS safety rules. Paragraph 4, 8b,  , 8e, all refer to "pyrotechnic devices" which are STONE COLD ILLEGAL under California law. If they do not bear a "Safe and Sane" registered State Fire Marshal seal they are illegal. Period. It's a misdemeanor "punishable by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $1000 or by imprisonment in the county jail for up to one year or both." I do not know my personal legal status if I am at a GWHS event and the State Fire Marshal decides to check it out. Do I get fined even if I do not possess any illegal fireworks? Does club membership grant me immunity or make me collectively responsible? The CHG does not use illegal pyrotechnics and they seem to get along just fine. I have personally been on the receiving end of panzerfaust and mortar fire (rubber projectiles) and had no difficulty determining I was very, very dead. The GWHS posts its rules for using illegal pyro on-line, and photographs of people using it! This make me nervous. Until this is sorted out, the only time you guys are going to see me in khaki is parades and public displays. Cheers! |
|
|
|
Post by oskar2ndchev on Sept 8, 2008 8:55:17 GMT -8
Radford,
Given your concerns, perhaps this isn't the reenacting venue for you.
|
|
|
|
Post by rsm2ndbtnlf on Sept 8, 2008 16:37:24 GMT -8
Radford.. I'm normally quite a tolerant individual, but you seem to be one of those individuals who do nothing but wing, spout hot air, and do not come up with the goods.
Firstly.. No-one in the GWHS uses illegal pyrotecnics... they are bought legally from government approved vendors.
Second.. Everyone in the GWHS, when taking part in WW1 reenactments, uses what they were born with = common sence.
Three.. Bayonets are not allowed to be fixed to any rifle within the battle area.
Four.. The GWHS Bylaws are chrystal clear in their intention. Each individual signs a personal waiver form before the start of the first battle, so if one wishes to sue the GWHS for anything because one is not intelligent enough to look after oneself... one has already accepted tyhe individual responsibility.
Five.. Instead of spouting 'extra hot air'.. please back up your statements with bonafide facts.
Six.. Please, if you wish to join us in our merriment during our collective passtime, have the good manners to keep ones eating orofice closed unless one has has something constructive to say.
Seven.. It is quite apparent that you have no wish to join in with us, the GWHS, and have a bloody good time. As Adam has already touched on... this time frame is not for you. Its for individuals who can think for themselves, enjoy being part of a like minded group, and know how to get down and dirty without shouting for mummy.
Finaly.. Please take your bordom elsewhere.
|
|
|
|
Post by oskar2ndchev on Sept 8, 2008 17:13:10 GMT -8
OK, this isn't going anywhere productive and I'm locking this thread. Here's the deal- if anyone has concerns over safety, take it up with the GWHS Board or our president Phil Dye.
We strive to maintain an adequate level of safety and we're certainly open to new ideas. However, this is not constructive.
|
|
;D
Who needs safety rules! Every man for himself!
, 8e, all refer to "pyrotechnic devices" which are STONE COLD ILLEGAL under California law. If they do not bear a "Safe and Sane" registered State Fire Marshal seal they are illegal. Period. It's a misdemeanor "punishable by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $1000 or by imprisonment in the county jail for up to one year or both." I do not know my personal legal status if I am at a GWHS event and the State Fire Marshal decides to check it out. Do I get fined even if I do not possess any illegal fireworks? Does club membership grant me immunity or make me collectively responsible? The CHG does not use illegal pyrotechnics and they seem to get along just fine. I have personally been on the receiving end of panzerfaust and mortar fire (rubber projectiles) and had no difficulty determining I was very, very dead.