|
|
Post by kat1918 on Dec 27, 2011 14:41:10 GMT -8
Just wondering how and,if the steel shells differ?
|
|
|
|
Post by rsm2ndbtnlf on Dec 28, 2011 7:49:40 GMT -8
Kat.. could you be a little more specific with your enquirey please?  "how and, if the steel shells differ?" 1) In what way : Steel make-up? 2) Length, width, weight, magnetism, ballistic strength? 3) US to British? 4) US variations? 5) British variations? |
|
|
|
Post by kat1918 on Dec 28, 2011 11:29:25 GMT -8
Well,realy just any thing in shape,size,markings etc. I picked a shell up at a garage sale for next to nothing and,as I realy no nothing about them was wondering what to look for to determine it's vintage? The chin strap bails are missing and,I know that the WW1 type had a rivet to hold the liner not, a bolt mine there is just the hole.
|
|
|
|
Post by aefstraggler on Dec 28, 2011 13:04:46 GMT -8
Well - for starters (and Seph and others can certainly add to this) there were several different
types of British "Brodie" helmets used during WW1.
In very general (and very simplified) terms there were Brodies with raw edges - and later
Brodies with an applied folded edge. Most British helmets had the chin strap bales attached
with a split pin. There was some range in size but, again in general, most WW1 Brodies will
be between 303 - 310 mm in length and between 292 - 295 mm in width. I believe the above is
applicable to both British and American helmets
Most Brodies (British and American) will have batch or manufactures codes stamped on the
underside of the brim - so the thing to do is to look for the code. American manufactured Brodies
will have a code such as ZCnnn - some common British codes would include FSnnn - HSnnn, etc.
|
|
|
|
Post by rsm2ndbtnlf on Jan 2, 2012 5:05:17 GMT -8
Dave.... thank you for expanding upon what your actually searching for. As John has rightly mentioned, for British 'Brodie' Steel Helmets, and American manufactured 'Model 1917' Steel Helmets, there will be a stamping somewhere on the underside of the helmet rim. For the American 'M1917', the stamping will always begin with a prefix letter of either 'X' - 'Y' - or - 'Z'... followed by another letter, eg: 'YD' - 'ZB' - 'XD'. The code will then be followed by a few number, eg: 'ZD64'.
Similar coding will appear on the British 'Brodie', eg: FS123, HD345. The British coding gives the manufacturer, and the steel batch number. Also, from the British code, can be calculated as to when the Brodie would have been manufactured. Some manufacturers being rarer than others.
It must be pointed out that not all British / American steel helmet style/type are WW1 vintage. This style of steel helmet has been used (with the British and Commonwealth forces) through both World Wars... in several variations. The style has also been in constant manufacture and use, right up to the present day, since its first appearance in late 1915. It should also be noted that anything offered for sale as 'Battlefield find = Somme', may not actually be from the Great War! Hundreds of thousands of the Steel Helmet Mk.2, were discarded by British and Commonwealth forces during the 1940 Dunkirk evacuation. Later, the old WW1 battlefields were re-faught over after the Allied invation of Europe in 1944.
America also manufactured a version of the M-1917 during WW2. This is commonly referred to as the 'Bataan'.
The original first issue British 'Brodie' had a slightly wider rim, and was without any bracing to its edge = Raw Edged. As it is quite easy to remove the latter helmets edging, any 'Raw Edged' example - being extremely rare - should be examined with caution. The reason is, this first issue can command prices in the thousands of £'s / $'s - if proved original, and connected to provonance!
If you do have any pressing quearies about the example you have for instance. A photograph of the overall condition, and of the underside.. including any markings found... will help in identification.
|
|
montythetommy
GWHS 
GWHS Vice-President
FOR KING AND COUNTRY!
Posts: 128
|
Post by montythetommy on Jan 25, 2012 23:47:02 GMT -8
Just want to add a tid bit on to these well educated chaps.
If you look at the Brodie in "Warhorse" and "A bridge too far", you will notice differences (though I'm not commending that the movies are always right! They do sneak in one another's types of Brodie respectively in the background).
Usually...
The WW1, is flatter and without folded brim. Read that a Cpl in the 2nd Yorkshire took his helmet and actually plunged the brim into a German (killing the kruat).
The WW2, is taller and quite smaller and 'as a folded brim.
Just how I tells 'em apart.
|
|
|
|
Post by rsm2ndbtnlf on Jan 26, 2012 10:21:26 GMT -8
Monty...
The first issue Brodie was what is called 'sharp edged'. This means that there was no edging material on the helmet rim. I was basically a smooth stamping. So your reference to the 'Cpl in the 2nd Btn The Yorkshire Rgt' refers to the first issue.
Also, if you study period photo's of troops wearing the initial issue of the Brodie.. you'll note how wide the helmet rim really is in comparison to its WW2 counterpart.
|
|
montythetommy
GWHS
GWHS Vice-President
FOR KING AND COUNTRY!
Posts: 128
|
Post by montythetommy on Jan 26, 2012 13:03:35 GMT -8
Exactly!
Also, I can hardly tell which is which when they 'ave a full burlap covering.
|
|
|
|
Post by oskar2ndchev on Jan 26, 2012 17:21:21 GMT -8
A side-by-side picture of the WWI and WWII versions might be useful if anyone has both. :-)
|
|
|
|
Post by peteknight on Feb 18, 2012 13:42:22 GMT -8
The simplest easiest and quickest way to determine a WW1 Brodie is to put it on a flat surface and try to rock the shell from front to back. If it rocks it is WW1 if it doesn't it is WW2 It is that simple!
Pete
|
|
|
|
Post by msole67 on Jun 13, 2012 11:53:47 GMT -8
The simplest easiest and quickest way to determine a WW1 Brodie is to put it on a flat surface and try to rock the shell from front to back. If it rocks it is WW1 if it doesn't it is WW2 It is that simple! Pete It's not quite as simple as that. There are plenty of later MKIIs that have led a hard life and will rock on a flat surface  It's a bit of a necropost but apart from the type A and B prototypes, battle bowlers fall into the following categories: War Office Pattern (1915-1916): Raw, unfinished edge. The crown of these often has slight ripples from the pressing process MKI (1916-1938): Similar to the War Office Pattern but with a steel rim around the edge. Improved pressing means no more ripples on the crown. British ones have split pins holding the bales and rims that butt together, American doughboy ones have rivets holding the bales and rims that overlap MKII: (1938 on) Also with a steel rim but with a slightly flatter profile The War Office Pattern ones are easy to identify but to differentiate between a MKI and a MKII, turn the helmet upside down - the brim of a MKII is exactly the same width all around the crown, giving it an oval shape. The brim of the earlier MKI is slightly wider at the sides, giving it a rounder shape. Don't rely on bales to date a helmet, Some MKI shells were also re-purposed to take the later WWII style helmet liner, top hole drilled out and bale brackets replaced. Collectors call these ones MKI*. Also many other nations used the MKII shell with different fittings for different types of liners and chinstraps. |
|
|
|
Post by oskar2ndchev on Jun 13, 2012 11:55:43 GMT -8
Hi, please take a moment to post an introduction in the introductions section and add a signature line to your posts. Thanks! :-)
|
|
