Belgium Rifle

[montythetommy]

Hey I was wondering if anyone knew what was the regulation rifle of the Belgium army during WW1? And if anyone could post a picture of it.

Historically, I've found that by 1915 they more often times used purchased Enfields and Lebels and/or captured Mausers. (Source, Micheal Peivelle Diary ((Belgium Antwerp 2nd Infantry Regiment)) )

[1886lebel]

The offical rifle the Belgian Army used in 1914 was the Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1889 (Rifle of Infantry Model 1889) in 7,65x53 mm developed by Paul Mauser.





When the vast majority of Belguim was over-run they aquired arms from France particulary the Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 'Lebel' and Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915.

Patrick

[montythetommy]

Good to know, thanks Patrick!

That'd make sense. The diary talks about several rifle armourys being captured in the scheifflan plan (early war) and he was issued the first one you said "Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 'Lebel'".

[1886lebel]

Both Manufacture de Armes de l’Etat located at Liège and Fabrique Nationale de Armes de Guerre (FN) located at Herstal were over run very quickly in August/September of 1914.
The Belgian Government contracted with Hopkins & Allen Arms Company (USA) to produce weapons for them as well as Birmingham Small Arms (England) but were not enough so they 'aquired' weapons from France and other places.
Patrick

[Larry Dunn]

The Belgian Mdl. 1889 was Mauser's first successful small-bore military rifle, introducing what came to be standard features on his later models--integral dual-opposed front locking lugs; large non-rotating claw extractor and most importantly, charger loading ("stripper clips"). The Turks (Mdl. 1890) and Argentines (Mdl. 1891) bought variations of the Belgian rifle, and the Mdl. 1889 is a direct ancestor of Paul Mauser's crowning glory, the Model 1898.

-Larry

[1886lebel]

You do realise that the integral dual-opposed front locking lugs were a French design first used on the Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1886 'Lebel' which was designed by Colonel Bonnet who was part of the Commission des Fusils à Répétition that developed the weapon. Paul Mauser was given one of these weapons from the defecting 'traitor' soldier who crossed the border with it in 1887.
Patrick

[Larry Dunn]

Hi Patrick,

What I meant by "integral" is that there is no separate bolt head, the locking lugs are integral to the bolt body (a Mauser innovation), though the dual-opposed front locking lugs were indeed Colonel Bonnet's design from which Paul Mauser borrowed heavily. There's no doubt that the Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1886, dit 'Lebel,' was in fact the first truly modern military rifle, a revolutionary development in small arms (apart from the unfortunate tapered cartridge case and cumbersome tube magazine).

-Larry

[1886lebel]

Okey Dokey Larry, thanks for clarifying it ;D

Back on subject ... This was one rifle I regretted selling a long time ago, now try finding one of these that was not modified in the 1930's is really hard but I was able to use the proceeds from it and others to buy my French gear
Patrick

[montythetommy]

I don't agree selling such a rifle to get froggey gear But each to their own vice.

How can you tell if the rifle of the infantry model 1889 has been modified patrick?

[1886lebel]

Only the breech, the trigger guard with protruding magazine and the front part of the bolt with the rotating extractor are the only remaining parts of the original design. A new barrel, sights, hand-guard, recoil spacer , barrel bands, bayonet stud, front sight with ears were added. The back part of the bolt is also modified to allow it to co-ck on opening instead of on the closing.

Patrick

[Larry Dunn]

Oct 15, 2011 11:04:43 GMT -8 montythetommy said:

I don't agree selling such a rifle to get froggey gear But each to their own vice.

How can you tell if the rifle of the infantry model 1889 has been modified patrick?

Patrick gave a very admirable summary of the differences between the model 89 and model 89/36. The easiest way to tell them apart at a glance is to look at the barrel--the original 1889 has the barrel enclosed in a metal tube, similar to the German Gewehr 88, with a simple blade front sight. The 89/36 re-fit eliminated the barrel jacket and uses a front sight with "ears."

-Larry

[montythetommy]

So there's not really any largely noticable difference?

[1886lebel]

The barrels were shortend as were the stocks, so it does make quite a bit of difference in the two.
Patrick