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Post by vonmudra on Feb 27, 2008 22:08:00 GMT -8
Has anyone here actually seen a picture, or a real life copy of the M1917 all services Feldmutze from Schipper? I've been interested in grabbing one, but I don't want to without first seeing or at least hearing about it.
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Post by hwolf on Mar 3, 2008 10:38:28 GMT -8
Way to Late War. Soldats did not like them either. I've never seen an original photo with a guy wearing it. Its alot like the ear cut out M18 shells (VERY late war.) Go with the norm not the exception.
Dan
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Post by vonmudra on Mar 3, 2008 11:58:30 GMT -8
Ok, gotcha, I'll just stick to my M1910 then:P
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Post by ianmcwherter on Jan 1, 2012 23:12:00 GMT -8
Way to Late War. Soldats did not like them either. I've never seen an original photo with a guy wearing it. Its alot like the ear cut out M18 shells (VERY late war.) Go with the norm not the exception. Dan Curious, is there any more primary source documentation to back this up? Numbers documented issued, ID'd originals, etc.? Just because Soldats didn't like them is a poor indicator of issuance. Photographically speaking, the pea-green color band of the M1917 Feldmütze can appear the same as the M1910 red band in WWI era photography, depending on lighting conditions, type of film, development, etc. Just compare the contrast between the collar of the M1915 Feldbluse and the band of the Feldmütze in photos, though this can be imperfect as well. The red band can also photograph very dark, depending on conditions. WWI or WWII era photography in general, I find, are terrible for determining the true color of any item. There are plenty of original M1917 Feldmützen in existence, and you can't necessarily dismiss them all as unissued "surplus," as plenty of M1910 originals exist as well. Just looking for more information.  Thanks. |
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Post by hwolf on Jan 2, 2012 9:40:17 GMT -8
Wow Ian...this thread was from 4 years ago! First...don't forget that I'm just as anal retentive as you are when it comes to uniforms.  I don't pull crap out unless I can back it ;D Thats why I'm the authenticity officer for the Germans in the GWHS. If you are truely interested in the nuts are bolts of things you need to invest in the Somer's 3 volume series (truely the best resources out there today) and the Jurgen Kraus book on the German Army. All 4 books will run you about $500 (but well worth the investment). They are a wealth of info. The model1917 feldmutze was officially adopted July 20, 1917 with production samples being made by Aug 31, 1917. These samples were then delivered to manufacturers shortly there after. Given the fact that it would of been another 1-3 months to use up old stocks and then begin production on the new pattern cap we can easily say it was late 1917 or early 1918 before its early issue to the troops. The troops disliked the universal cap because of its lack on unit designation via waffenfarbe. You must bare in mind the militarism factor even by this late stage of the war. However, to be honest, I think most probably had better things to worry about. Issue numbers are not available. However, add to the fact that the German uniform industry was notorious for essentially ignoring uniform changes under the circumstances of a total war economy using what was at hand from local suppliers also adds to the dilemma. Old stocks of red wool would of been used up. If the manufacturer could then not find a supplier of the new feldgrau abzeichentuch band cloth they simply continued making the m19107 with red band and piping. The proliferation of surviving originals can be explained by the fact that a lot (not all) are undated and were the uniform standard of the early Weimar army. Thus as reenactors the norm here is the red banded feldmutze (ten years of production vs a year or so for the 1917.) In IR 23 we have 3 guys with them out of 45 which is a nice blend based on historical documentation. Hope this helps Dan |
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Post by ianmcwherter on Jan 2, 2012 11:17:22 GMT -8
Four years ago already? Man, you just made me feel old, 2008 seems like it was yesterday. Are we really in 2012 already?  Thanks for the info. I don't doubt your knowledge. I personally feel there ought to be a few more of these out there, generally speaking, given the fact that all of our events in this country are 1918. Back east you'll see lots of Germans and nearly to a man they all have 1910 mützen, despite the fact that the event is 1918. There are numerous dated and depot stamped original M1917 mützen out there. Alas, it's not for me to say though, I'm not the authenticity officer (I'll defer to your judgment) and I don't plan on joining IR 23. I plan on coming out with the French 151éme, somebody's got to give you guys a run for your money . I would like to make myself a very late war German uniform though, but I need to get my Horizon Blue one done first. |
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Post by Kruger on Jan 3, 2012 9:12:17 GMT -8
Ian, you are correct in your assessment that there is not enough late war impressions, and too many early 1910 impressions out there. That is why we are pushing for everybody to come out in 1915 feldblouses, black leather gear, ankle boots, etc. This was much more common in the events we portray, not to mention the numerous mandates and orders that came out as early as 1915 that stated soldiers must blacken brass and gear.
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Post by oskar2ndchev on Jan 3, 2012 10:15:05 GMT -8
However, one interesting thing is that the Germans seemed to have broken their own rules on a regular basis. One example are ammunition pouches- I've come accross ammuntion pouches with 1917 and 1918 date stamps that are brown (and which appeared to have been used).
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Post by Weller on Jan 3, 2012 19:47:34 GMT -8
But the problem with them being "used" is, it could have been used ANYTIME between 1917 and present. Just be careful out there.
Sean
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Post by oskar2ndchev on Jan 3, 2012 20:53:32 GMT -8
Exactly my point. And for the ones made in 1918? I would be willing to venture that sometimes things were not as uniform as we'd like to believe. The fact that the pouches were used AND issued in brown, with no attempt to at blackening would suggest that a lot of stuff was allowed to slide.
Just saying that sometimes, things are not so clear-cut.
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Post by muddhen on Jan 4, 2012 6:03:06 GMT -8
Just saying that sometimes, things are not so clear-cut. AMEN |
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Thanks.
I don't pull crap out unless I can back it ;D Thats why I'm the authenticity officer for the Germans in the GWHS. 
