Russians on the Western Front.

[rsm2ndbtnlf]

Gents,

A subject has now risen its head in reference to the Imperial Russian Army on the Western Front.

Personally, I've never heard of any Russians fighting in that theatre of operations, and I've been interested in The Great War since 1960. I'm not one to knock any impression if its historically correct in all areas.

The GWHS has its impression set in 1917 / 18 on the western front, and my battalions main impression is pre WW1 = The Old Contemptables. In order to join the GWHS, I had to prove that the 2nd Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers were a bonafide battalion in the area of operations dedicated by the GWHS. A couple of tweeks were required to our basic uniform, but the fact is this.. the 2nd Battalion were present in the area designated by the GWHS and within the timescale stated.

In order that the GWHS does not fall into the trap of becoming a Farb Fest for certain impressions, thus making a mockery of the GWHS Bylaws... and its impression statement.. standards need to be adheared to. One of those standards requires a unit to be historically correct for the GWHS parameters. Can the supposed Imperial Russian unit pass the test? Personally, I doubt it it very much.

So, come on chaps.. lets start digging in the archives, and find that historical reference that states there were Imperial Russian troops fighting on the Western Front for the years 1917 / 18.

It would be even better if the chaps from the forming unit spoke up here for themselves.

Standards Gentlemen... lets not let them slip to the lows of American Civil War senarios!

Seph

Edit...
I've started this thread in fairness to the chaps forming the Imperial Russian unit. I personally have doubts, but lets not make this thread into a slagging match of .. they were there.. no they were not! Please, keep the remarks constructive, and lets find that historical reference.. if it exists!

[1886lebel]

Two infantry Brigades, the 1st and the 3rd, were sent to France in 1916 by Tsar Nicholas II both as a morale booster to the Allies on the Western Front and as a part of "men for arms" trade arranged with the French government. Originally 40,000 soldiers per month were to be sent to France, but this arrangement was never carried out in full. Nevertheless, a total of four brigades were sent to the West, with the 1st and 3rd brigades going to France and 2nd and 4th brigades going to the Macedonian Front at Salonika.

First brigade, composed of the 1st and 2nd Special purpose regiments and commanded by Major General Nikolai Alexandrovich Lokhvitsky boarded their trains at Moscow on February 2, 1916, and traveled across Siberia to the port of Dal'ny, where they sailed in four ships past Hong Kong and via the Suez Canal to Marseilles. They arrived in France in April of 1916. By April 23rd, the First brigade of the Russian Expeditionary Forces in France was training at camp Mailly-le-Grand in Champaigne. The 3rd brigade of the REF arrived in Brest from Archangel in September of 1916. On September 17, 1916 Joffre ordered the 1st and 3rd brigades to form a Division at Mourmelon-le-Grand in Champaigne.

In July of 1916 units from the 1st brigade occupied a section of the trenches between Mourmellon-le-Grand-Auberive and Verzy Prunay, near the village of Courcy and Fort de la Pompelle. On July 15th and 16th they successfully repelled a concentrated German attack. The 1st brigade stayed in the trenches until it was relieved by the newly arrived 3rd brigade on October 16.
Through the rest of 1916 REF fought and trained in Champaigne. In January of 1917 the 6th regiment of the 3rd brigade experienced a German gas attack for the first time and suffered heavy casualties.

In March of 1916, after the abdication of Nicholas II, and "underground" meeting of "soldiers' representatives" took place in the 1st regiment of the 1st brigade. They drafted a resolution demanding repatriation back to Russia. The seeds of rebellion were sown.

In April of 1917, the REF took an oath of allegiance to the Russian Provisional Government. During the preparations for the Nivelle offensive the REF became a part of the French V Army. During the first days of the offensive, on April 16th-18th, REF units successfully captured the town of Courcy and held it against German counter attacks for three days. They took over 500 prisoners. Russian losses were 700 dead and 3,000 wounded. After an unsuccessful attack on strongly fortified and fiercely defended Fort Brimont, the REF were pulled back from the front on April 23. This was the last coherent military action by the 1st and 3rd brigades of the Russian Expeditionary Forces in France as such.

Russian 1st brigade openly rebelled on May 25, 1917, after being sent to Neufchateu. Mutinouse troops refused to obey their officers, chanting "To Russia and nowhere else!"

In June the 1st brigade was moved to camp La Courtine. The 3rd brigade followed in July. In a matter of days open hostilities developed between the two brigades. The 1st brigade was in full rebellion, while the 3rd brigade was obeying its officers and was still ready to continue fighting in France.

After many fruitless attempts to restore order at La Courtine, the French authorities were forced to act. The Russian 3rd brigade was ordered to surround the camp with the rebels. On September 18, 1917, the camp was shelled by Russian-manned battery of French 75mm guns. The rebels surrendered. The French authorities imprisoned the rebel leaders and sent a great number of mutinous troops to prison and the colonies in Algeria.

On October 5, 1917, General Zankevich (commander of the REF in France) wired St. Petersburg for permission to form the Russian Legion which would continue fighting the War in France. The Russian government agreed. On October 15th, former commander of the 1st Brigade, General Lokhvitsky, held the first meeting of the Russian Legion. This was held outdoors and was open to officers, NCO's and rank and file alike. The Russian Legion was born. On December 10, 1917, the French Government officially recognized the Russian Legion and established its base of operations in the town of Laval. The Legion was comprised of four battalions, commanded by Colonels Gotua, Ieske, Balbashevsky and Simenov, respectively. Colonel Gotua's 1st battalion of the Russian Legion was moved to the front on January 5, 1918, where it joined the 4th Moroccan Infantry, Moroccan Shock Division.

Subsequent military action by the Russian Legion evoked nothing but praise from the French command.

On April 25th and 26th, Gotua's 1st battalion was involved in heavy fighting at Villers-Bretonneux, near Amiens. Captain Lupanov's 1st company and Captain Razumov's machine gun company fought so well that all officers were awarded the French Military Crosses. Captain Lupanov was awarded the Croix de la Legion d'Honneur.

On May 20th, the 1st battalion and Simenov's 4th battalion fought at Chamin-des-Dames. 3rd company of the 1st battalion of the Russian Legion rescued the 1st Zouave battalion which was being surrounded by the enemy. In this action the company lost three quarters of its officers and almost 200 men. For this and other action around Soissons, the citizens of the town started calling the Russian troops "the Russian Legion of Honor".

On July 18, 1918, as part of General Magin's X Army, the Russian Legion took part in the action at Chateau Thierry road. The entire operation resulted in the capture of 30,000 German prisoners.

In September, General Daugan, commander of the Moroccan Division, part of which was the Russian Legion, praised their action all along the front from Amiens to the Somme: "The battalions, of which the implacable hatred of the enemy enlivens all their actions, possess a complete scorn of death to the most beautiful enthusiasm for a sacred cause…"

On the Armistice Day, November 11, 1918, the Russian Legion, as part of the Moroccan division, was in the trenches in Lorraine, near Lanneaucort.

[rsm2ndbtnlf]

Excellant... Thank you Patrick. I'll admit, I've just learned something I was not aware of previously.

What unit is it that is being formed?

Is it known as to what uniform was worn, and the personal weapons the individual Russian was using.. French or Russian?

Seph

[jcaputo]

Steve,
The Imperial Russian military in WWI has always held a great deal of interest for me. That being said its a obscure topic in the Great War. If you would like to lean a little more about "Le Legion Russe, and yes they were active on the Western front until 1918, there are a few excellent books I can recommend, probably the best is:
Snow on their boots by Jamie H. thingyfield

The title came from the rather ridiculous phrase by the British of the time that you could tell a Russian soldier by the snow on his boots. The book covers the entire history of the Russian units serving on the Western Front.

I hope this info helps a little

[rsm2ndbtnlf]

Steve??

[jcaputo]

The Russian legion initially arrived in France in 1916 wearing their Imperial uniforms issued to them in Russia before leaving. In fact their are photos of them Marching in France in 1916 carrying their M91 Mosin Nagants rifles.
That being said before the legion was sent to the front they were issued French leather gear & rifles. Photos show all models of French rifles were carried.

The Imperial Russian helmets, were actually the M15 Adrian, which were already being manufactured in French factories, Companie de Colonial, Reflex, and Jappy all held contracts with the Imperial Russian government to produce helmets for Russian troops. The helmets were painted olive to match the Russian uniform. That being said I personally know two collectors who own verified original Adrian helmets painted horizon blue with the Imperial Russian eagle on the front. Its hard to know for sure but I think its easy to guess later in the war the French probably issued the Russians whatever color helmet was in stock.

I have been unable to find any information about what they did when their unforms worn out. It provable that they were issed from their own stock until it was depleted. It also maybe possible the French manufactued Russian uniforms too. I don't believe the Russian ever worn French colonial uniforms. I so far have not seen any photos of members of the Russian legion in French. uniforms, so maybe they were tailered locally.

[1886lebel]

I have a feeling the unit being formed will be the same one as the GWA ... "A" Machine Gun Company of the 1st Battalion of La Légion Russe

Is it known as to what uniform was worn, and the personal weapons the individual Russian was using.. French or Russian?
Yes it known exactly what they wore ... Eugene K. Poplavsky did alot of research into this, they wore Russian uniforms with French equipment and Adrian helmets with Russian badge on the front. As to weapons used both ... Russian: Trekhlineinaya Vintovka obr.1891g and French: Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 "Lebel" and Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915.
Edit: The Russians did use the Trekhlineinaya Vintovka obr.1891g up at the front lines ... Eugene showed me a picture of these guys in action with them.

I have been in trenches with the guys from La Légion Russe and they are top notch people. They did everything in Russian, drill, commands, drink, etc., etc. You have never meet a group more devoted to making sure thier impression is perfect. These guys treated a certain Frenchman very nicely one year to a Russian Easter Celebration dinner which I will never forget.
Patrick

[1886lebel]

As we are speaking of units bieng formed ... A fellow Civil War reenacting compatriot is trying to form a WWI Italian Unit that did fight on the Western Front.
He has got documentation as to what units and where they served .... here are some of the link to the historical documentation but it is in Italian which I can not fully understand but I get the jist of the articles.
digilander.libero.it/fiammecremisi/guerra1/171.htm
cronologia.leonardo.it/storia/a1918n.htm
I did some research for him and did find out that they indeed bring their Fucile di Fanteria Modello 1891 "Carcano" rifles with them and were used in the front-lines.
He is hoping to have his uniform and equipment in hand by November so he can hopefully come out with me in November to a reenactment. He has never been to WWI reenactment ... Is he in for a BIG suprise ;D
Patrick

[oskar2ndchev]

Patrick, you beat me to the punch on this one- I was going to ask for your comments on French Weapons that were issued to the the Russian Legion, with an eye towards buffing up on the authenticity.

Seph, trust me this is an issue the Board has been dealing with for the past few weeks and for me personally, it's been a real pain in the rear. We will be putting out a general policy announcement at the battle in regard to this matter but here's a short synposes:

1) After this battle, all participants' impressions will be appropriate to the particular unit that they're with (e.g., if you're with the 2nd Lancs, you will have the appropriate British impression; if you're with Co. G, 364th US you will have an appropriate US impression, etc.). Also, and this has always been a long-standing rule, all participants will belong to a recognized GWHS unit.

2) Individual impressions are subject to Board approval. This is aimed primiarily at speciality impressions such as Ron Lunde.

3) If someone wants to do an impression that there is currently no unit for, you must create a unit per the new unit formation rules provided for in the Bylaws and until the process is fully completed, the applicants will be attached to another unit. This is the case for the Royal Marine Light Infantry (attached to the 2nd Lancs) and the Austro-Hungarians (attached to IR 23).

So, the bottom line is this: If people want to do a Russian Legion impression, they will have to start the formal process of creating a unit.

Personally, I have no issues with those who might want to do a Russian Legion impression (the more, the merrier), but it must be done by the rules.

Hopefully this will clarify things and there will be more put out on this by the Board and it's subject to change.

With that said, I would like to encourage positive growth and discourage animosity. Certainly there's been some mis-steps but I think they can be resolved without causing discord. It certainly is not my goal to drive anyone away or discourage anyone. But, at the same time, we have to apply some consistent standards from here on out.

I'd like to move on in a spirit of cooperation- there's enough to do (digging trenches, installing sandbags, etc.) without having to deal with discord and disharmony.

If anyone has any questions or concerns, please PM me or email me at [e-mail]

[rsm2ndbtnlf]

Patrick... your knowledge seems remarkable, and I hope you will put up with all of our enquiries to you.

Back to the Imperial Russian chapies! Is there a general list of battalions recognised by the French as the 1st Russion Legion?

Seph

[1886lebel]

La Légion Russe was composed of 4 Bataillons ...
1éme Bataillon ... Colonel Gotua
2éme Bataillon ... Colonel Ieske
3éme Bataillon ... Colonel Balbashevsky
4éme Bataillon ... Colonel Simenov

Patrick

[Platon Karataev]

I guess as one of the chaps starting the Russian Expeditionary Corps unit, I should pipe in and at least say hello.

Let me first say that I'm not one for starting real discord, and I don't like being around it. So if we've rubbed anyone the wrong way, as I sense we have, I'm sorry for that. When we started putting the kits together it didn't seem like it would be such a big deal.

Unfortunately, "With Snow on their Boots" is a print-on-demand book and I'll be waiting for it for a few more weeks, though it is available through Google books: tinyurl.com/c9pkae

Also there is a French/Russian book of photographs which I wonder whether anyone owns... Patrick, maybe? tinyurl.com/dkf6jh "LE CORPS EXPEDITIONNAIRE RUSSE EN FRANCE ET A SALONIQUE "

Clayton

[1886lebel]

Eugene K. Poplavsky has the book ... I think he said a few of pictures are in the book were one he owned. I am always for looking at obsure pictures of different countries using French rifles. I saw one of Italians along the Izonzo carrying Mle.1907-1915 which I know as late in 1917 150,000 Berthier rifles and carbines were sent to Italy.
Patrick

[jcaputo]

Patrick,
Thats very interesting that you saw them with 91s on the front line. I would love to see photos of that. I have seen a few photos of Russians wearing the Russian pattern cartridge box on the Western front, but no rifles were in the photo.

I seems to me that it would be logical that if they arrived in France with the 91s, that they would have seen action with them, at least at some point. Its documented that the French did manufacture ammo for the 91s under contract to Imperial Russia, so ammo for the 91s was certainly avaliable.

[Platon Karataev]

Patrick you strike me as the kind of guy I should talk to once I have hoarded enough Leprechaun gold to acquire a Lebel. What do you do for blanks?