Berthier Carbine and Rifle Information

[oskar2ndchev]

Here's a pretty detailed thread regarding Bertheir Carbines and Rifles. I don't know much except from Chris's cursing at the last battle...here it is:

europeanww1lh.forumup.be/viewtopic.php?t=2601&mforum=europeanww1lh

[1886lebel]

List of some of the various contractors that made pieces for the Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915, Fusil de Infanterie Modèle Modifié 1916 and Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 Modifié 1915 during The Great War:

1. Établissement Delaunay-Belleville: made complete weapons ... Société Anonyme des Automobiles Delaunay-Belleville was formed in 1903 by Louis Delaunay and Marius Barbarou and was a French luxury automobile manufacturer from Saint Denis sur Seine, France. At the beginning of the 20th century they were among the most prestigious cars produced in the world, and perhaps the most desirable French marque. The Delaunay-Belleville were favorite automobiles of Russian Tsar Nicholas II, and other noblilities, King George I of Greece and King Alphonso XIII of Spain. By the late 1920s the Delaunay-Belleville had lost its prestige and converted to truck and military vehicles production. The factory was sold in 1946 to Robert de Rovin and was used to make the De Rovin minicars up to 1950. They made 159,912 complete Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 and Fusil de Infanterie Modèle Modifié 1916 during The Great War ... Code: EDB
2. Établissement Continsouza: boîte de culasse ... Établissement Continsouza was created in 1909 by Pierre-Victor Continsouza which produced gramophones and cinematography equipmnent. In 1914 Monsieur Continsouza rented industrial buildings called l'Usine de la Marque in North-East part of Tulle to produce armaments for the war effort. After the war he moved his entire production of cinematography equipmnent to this location. He continued operations until May of 1928 when he merged with Éstablishments Louis Aubert to form a company called Mécanique Industrial de Precision (M.I.P.) but in 1929 he was forced to liquidate his assets to the Banque Nationale de Crédit (B.N.C.) and thus the name Établissements Continsouza disappears from history.
3. Avis and Co. (USA): made 43,500 barrels, contract was terminated before the end of production due to poor quality of the barrels.
4. Atelier Bariquand & Marre: têtes mobiles, extracteurs, chiens, manchons, visserie, goupilles et entretoises n'entrant pas dans la composition d'éléments complets ... Code: BM within a circle
5. Société des Automobiles Brasier: supports d'élévateur, gâchettes, manchons ... Code: B within a circle
6. Société des Anciens Établissements Chenard & Walker: pontet, vis de crochet, vis d'éjecteur, vis de gâchette ... Code: CW
7. Établissement Bliss & Cie: chargeurs
8. Société Anonyme des Anciens Établissements Cohendet & Cie à Paris: tenons à fourche pour mousquetons, ressort d'embouchoirs pour carabine de cavalerie ... Code: CO interlaced
9. R. Cornely & Cie: pieds de hausse.
10. Darracq & Cie: embouchoirs à quillon, battants de crosse, embases, pivots, écrous, rondelles, rivet, goupilles, anneaux de battant.
11. L. Delage & Cie: gâchettes, détentes, goupilles de détente, crochets de chargeur, poignées de baïonnette ... Code: LD
12. Delahaye & Cie: planches inférieure, ressorts à galet, galets, goupilles, détentes, gâchettes ... Code: D within a circle
13. Société Lorraine des Anciens Établissements de Dietrich & Cie, Lunéville: planches supérieure, cylindres de culasse, cylindres, vis d'assemblage ... Code: L within a circle
14. Établissements de Dion-Bouton: planches supérieure, cylindres de culasse, supports d'élévateur ... Code: DB
15. Société des Établissements Gaumont: pieds de hausse.
16. M. Guinard: ressorts de grenadière, ressorts de crochet et de gâchette, ressorts de percussion, ressorts de virole de baïonnette, planches de hausse, ressorts de hausse, ressorts de curseur.
17. Gaston Johnson: pontets, planches supérieure, planches inférieure, ressorts de planche inférieur, galets, vis de planche d'élévateur, goupilles de galet ... Code: J within a circle
18. Établissement Malicet & Blin: anneaux de grenadière, croisières de baïonnette.
19. Manufacture d'Etampage et de ferrure du Nord-Est: cylindres de fusil.
20. Manufacture Parisienne d'Armes et de Mécanique Générale: canons, culasses mobiles ... Code: MPA
21. F. Marinier: embouchoirs ... Code: MA
22. Société des Anciens Établissements Panhard & Levassor: chiens, percuteurs, ressorts de percussion, embouchoirs à quillon, viroles de poignée de baïonnette ... Code: PL
23. Société Générale des Établissements Pathé Frère: ressorts d'embouchoir, écrous, supports de vis de culasse, curseurs de hausse.
24. Société des Automobiles & Cycles Peugeot: lames de baïonnette, écrous de poignée, fourreaux de baïonnettes ... Code: P
25. Victor Pouzet: pontets ... Code: P
26. Automobiles Renault: pontets, supports d'élévateur, t^tes mobiles, percuteurs, éjecteurs, entretoises de pontet, poignées de baïonnette, visserie goupilles et entretoises n'entrant pas dans la composition d'éléments complets ... Code: R
27. Compagnie Française pour l'Exploitation des Procédés Thomson-Houston: gâchette.
28. Société des Automobiles Unic: planches inférieure, ressorts de planche supérieure, ressorts à galet, galets, goupilles.
29. Établissements Vibert-Truchon & Cie: boîtier de protection (mle 1916) ... Code: HVT Co
30. Établissements Zavaterro à Saint Bonnet le Château: plaques de couche, crosses.
31. M. Zavattero Frères: plaques de couche
32. Maison Pathé: planches de hausse
33. Établissements Boulland
34. Maison Dacheux Frères
35. Établissements Vilboeuf & Ladreyt
36. Société Anonyme (S.A). des Anciens Établissement L. Chambon ... Code: C
37. Clément Bayard ... Code: CB within a circle

Comité des Forges de France: pièces de forge ... This committee was created in 1864 by various master of forging mills to study and defend the professional interests of forging mills. It was reorganized in 1887-1888 and played a paramount role in the collective organization of the French iron and steel industry, in particular by the fixing of quotas of the production and the sharing of markets.

Remington Contract:
A contract was established with Remington Arms Company based in Ilion, New York sometime in late 1915 or early 1916 for an unknown quantity of Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915. (It is believed that no more than 100,000, according to French sources and according to Remington it claims the contract was originally for 200,000 rifles). The French state that 9,444 were supposedly delivered and as the official records from Remington are no longer around we will not really know what is true. Many of these rifles did not get to France for one reason or another, speculation to the actual cause for the rejection and subsequent cancellation of the contract run the gamut. Some say the war ended before they could be fully shipped, some say the had dimensional issues with the chambers and were rejected or they needed to be re-worked and by the time they did get it right the war ended. Other theories are that they had poor heat treatment of the receivers, the French changed the contract to make them into Fusil de Infanterie Modèle Modifié 1916 with the 5 shot extended magazines and the French refused to pay for the conversion. The most ridiculous suggestion is the French simply rejected them due to resentment of the growing influence of the United States! This ridiculous idea doesn't stand up to close scrutiny, either. At the time the contract was placed, the Allies, including the French, were in desperate need of small arms. Regardless of the cross Atlantic sentiments of today, during WWI, the French were more than happy to have as much help as the United States was prepared to provide.
What we do know is that a majority of the weapons made were sold after WWI to the American public through the DCM, the predecessor of the CMP. The ones that did make it to France were serialized upon inspection. What sketchy information does exist seems to indicate a maximum of perhaps 9,000 to 10,000 rifles that were actually received by the French Military are believed to have been inspected and rejected by the French. The rejected rifles were then reportedly sent to one of the French arsenals (reportedly MAC) where they were reworked. after which they were placed in stores as reserve weapons. An extremely small number of rifles were accepted and marked with French serial numbers have surfaced. The example in a collection bears an "E" serial number in the 6,000 range. This rifle, along with other serialized examples examined in Europe, would seem to support the numbers quoted in French sources.

[oskar2ndchev]

This is amazing information- and I'm not doing a French impression!

OK, now I have to ask:

On a practical level, where should the would-be French WWI reenactor start in looking for a suitable rifle? Rifle? Carbine? Berthier? Lebel? I'm so confused!

Also, what sort of cost factor is involved and is it possible to still get something functional without having to take out a second mortgage on the house?

Finally, what's the blank situation- I've heard that it's impossible to obtain the right blanks without investing on an ammunition factory. (OK, I exagerate there!).

Any information would be greatly appreciated, especially for the benefit of new folks. Thanks in advance!

[1886lebel]

Where to start .... ;D
Where should the would-be French WWI reenactor start in looking for a suitable rifle? Rifle? Carbine? Berthier? Lebel? ...
The best place to get one nowdays is to find one at either Auction Arms or Gunbroker.com. You might be lucky to get one a local gunstore or gun show but it seems lately these are bieng sucked up dry by collectors, shooters, and others such as myself.
Now as I am moderator of French rifles at various military rifle internet forums such as surplusrifleforum.com and gunboards.com there is now getting a big interest in the weapons as we are getting closer to 100th Anniversary of The Great War and demand for these are growing and bieng sucked up quickly. Which leads to the question: what sort of cost factor is involved and is it possible to still get something functional without having to take out a second mortgage on the house ?.
Mle.1886's are now running anywhere from $500 to $1,000, Berthier Rifle Mle.1907-1915's $300 to $800 and Mle.M.1916 $250 to $700 depending on condition and such. These are the weapons that should be used by Infantrymen at Great War reenactments and not Carbines unless you are portraying either a Machine Gunner or Mortar man. Even Mle.1915 CSRG teams used full length RIFLES except for the gunner.
Carbine prices are dependent on the model ... the cheapest is the Mle.1892 Artillery which run from $250 and up but alot of these I have seen are the post-war 1927 modifications which would be incorrect for use in Great War reenacting, just my opinion though. Original 1890 Cavalry models run $900 + and the "rare" Cuirassier Model will run you $2,000 + if you ever find one.
As to what rifles French should use ... 1. Mle.1886 "Lebel" 2. Mle.1907-1915 3. Mle.M.1916 in that order. I have a beef with the last one as these really did not get circulated into French Regiments until very late 1917 and very few were actually used in the war, most of these became standard issue after the war. I can understand why reenactors use them though as they are cheaper and most commonly found rifles without over-killing your budget. I just personally will never carry one at a reenactment ... my choice is a Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1886 "Lebel".
As to blank ammo ... this has been a problem for years and you are right in that it is impossible to obtain the right blanks without investing on an ammunition factory.
I understand Atlantic Wall makes blanks in 8x50Rmm but I have never used them so I can not say how they work. I make my own which I reload over and over as I got lucky many years ago to get blanks that were made by Remington that were made for the movie industry and were reloadable which I have used many times over.
Ok I have done it again ... ramble on and on ... you probably already want me to shut up ;D .... You probaly kick me when I come out there ... SHUT UP for pete's sake. Seriously though if anyone want information regarding French weapons, ammunition please ask me and forgive me if I ramble on when I answer.
You can always find me at surplusrifleforum.com as well which is where I have all this information set up in the various French forums on there. You will also find alot of good information on other nations weapons as well. My name on there is the same as it is here ... 1886lebel
Patrick

[CRMichaelis]

I got my 8mm Lebel blanks from Swanson. A little pricey compared to 8mm Mauser and .30-'06, but I was glad to find them. Then I used them... They jammed a lot. I had a few blanks that I got along with my Berthier from good old George Green. Those blanks worked perfect - so I know it's not the rifle, at least not entirely! All I can say is my k98a cycles like a charm! ;D

[1886lebel]

I just wanted to let you all know that I will be working with Mr. Paul Scarlata who is a Contribution Editor for Shooting Times, Shotgun News, Handguns for an article in Shotgun News on the Berthier system which will be hopefully published sometime in 2010.
Our goal is to give the public the real information regarding these weapons instead of the rubbish myths, legends and such that you see written on them.
Patrick